rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Aug 21, 2020 15:13:05 GMT -5
I was looking at specs for TT and came upon this definition for GVWR for travel trailers. I can see how it would hold true for an RV, but for a TT, it seems wrong.
It would mean most of us have our trailer overloaded at night, when the wife and kids are inside.
GVWR means Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. This is the absolute maximum amount of weight that the trailer can bear when it is fully loaded. This includes all cargo, fluids, and passengers, plus the original weight of the trailer. This weight rating should not be exceeded.
Do any of you have any thoughts, knowledge on this matter?
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Post by lynnmor on Aug 21, 2020 15:59:03 GMT -5
You bring up a very good point, the springs and other parts are rated for a certain weight and that’s the limit. With many trailers using the absolute minimum components, I’m sure that they are overloaded. I guess we need to bring a tent for the extra folks.
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Post by laknox on Aug 23, 2020 21:07:56 GMT -5
So, when you're towing, you have, basically, 3 points of contact that supports the weight. Hitch pin and wheels (I count each pair of wheels as 1 point). And you're moving, introducing dynamic forces into the system. When you're stopped, you likely have 7 points of contact with the ground supporting the load. Landing jack; 2 front stabilizers; wheels and 2 rear stabilizers. Yes, I agree that the stabilizers don't "carry" a lot of weight, but I'd be willing to bet that they're holding up at least 150-200 lbs each. Since you're stationary, there's virtually no dynamic forces acting on the system. Normally, you'd dump before moving again, so you should be under your GVW, unless you travel =really= heavy.
Lyle
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Aug 24, 2020 9:45:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the input. I have a KZ 180QB, GVWR 3500, UVW 2900, so 600 pounds of load capacity.I often stop at a Walmart overnight, so no stabilizers lowered, just the tongue Jack to assist the truck rear axle load overnight.
500/600 pounds does not go far if you deduct say 400 for people, 100 for water..... KZ must think people travel pretty light. Having said that, so far I have had no issues.
Nevertheless, I suppose this is something all KZ owners need to be aware of, when packing for a trip.
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Post by laknox on Aug 24, 2020 10:18:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the input. I have a KZ 180QB, GVWR 3500, UVW 2900, so 600 pounds of load capacity.I often stop at a Walmart overnight, so no stabilizers lowered, just the tongue Jack to assist the truck rear axle load overnight. 500/600 pounds does not go far if you deduct say 400 for people, 100 for water..... KZ must think people travel pretty light. Having said that, so far I have had no issues. Nevertheless, I suppose this is something all KZ owners need to be aware of, when packing for a trip. Again, while stationary, there's no real issue, IMO. Lyle |
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Aug 24, 2020 11:21:19 GMT -5
I asked KZ, for their opinion on whether persons overnight are included in the GVWR, below is their reply. Personally, even though I am happy with my 180QB, I knowing what I know now, I would avoid a purchase of a KZ, unless the model has a decent cargo capacity. KZ answer is below. The net carrying capacity is the same whether stationary or hauling. So, yes, the weight limit does include persons sleeping in the unit overnight. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thank you, Michelle Michelle- Team 2 Technical Service Advisor e: mfredenburg@kz-rv.com – o: 866-472-5460 x191 www.kz-rv.com0985 North 900 West – Shipshewana, In 46565 |
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Post by laknox on Aug 25, 2020 10:24:45 GMT -5
I asked KZ, for their opinion on whether persons overnight are included in the GVWR, below is their reply. Personally, even though I am happy with my 180QB, I knowing what I know now, I would avoid a purchase of a KZ, unless the model has a decent cargo capacity. KZ answer is below. The net carrying capacity is the same whether stationary or hauling. So, yes, the weight limit does include persons sleeping in the unit overnight. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thank you, Michelle Michelle- Team 2 Technical Service Advisor e: mfredenburg@kz-rv.com – o: 866-472-5460 x191 www.kz-rv.com0985 North 900 West – Shipshewana, In 46565 IMO, that's a b.s. lawyer answer. Towing and stationary are apples and kumquats since there are no dynamic loads on the rig when stationary. That statement would mean that virtually every RV out there is likely over GVW when stationary and that they could deny warranty claims on "overloading" while sitting in a campground. In my 15 years of reading several RV fora and magazines, I've never once heard of a rig "breaking" while stationary. By this, I mean major structural failure that could be attributed to overloading. Again, IMO, you'll likely get the same answer from any mfr you ask, which means that, given your logic, you shouldn't buy =any= RV, let alone a KZ.  Just kidding... Lyle |
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Aug 25, 2020 11:12:26 GMT -5
I agree totally with you and responded to KZ along that line of thought. Pretty much the trailer cannot be used for the purpose it was designed for. Unless every time you stop to camp you remove the weight equivalent of the occupants and transfer it to your truck. I have always believed that provded the weight is under the GVWR when you go over the CAT scale you are good... then I saw the definition of the GVWR and got KZ response regarding overnight passengers. As many KZ owners as possible should complain to KZ, as you said no one is likely to get a warranty claim paid. See the email address below. Michelle- Team 2 Technical Service Advisor e: mfredenburg@kz-rv.com – o: 866-472-5460 x191 www.kz-rv.com |
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Aug 31, 2020 7:30:49 GMT -5
To demo the issue, see the 181 bunk house numbers below. KZ state that the carrying capacity is 500 pounds, yet this trailer can (and is designed) to sleep 4.
Even if the two adults weigh in at 150 pounds each and the 2 kids at a 100 each, the 500 pounds is completely used and you have reached the GVWR, without adding a single item to the trailer. This means to sleep in this trailer, you need to remove all items, probably the battery and gas bottle as well.
This trailer, therefore cannot fill the fuction it was designed for..... and is pretty much useless.
SPORTMEN CLASSIC 181BH
UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight)* 3,000
Dry Hitch Weight* 430
Dry Axle Weight* 2,570
NCC (Net Carrying Capacity) 500
GVWR 3,500
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Post by laknox on Aug 31, 2020 10:32:22 GMT -5
To demo the issue, see the 181 bunk house numbers below. KZ state that the carrying capacity is 500 pounds, yet this trailer can (and is designed) to sleep 4. Even if the two adults weigh in at 150 pounds each and the 2 kids at a 100 each, the 500 pounds is completely used and you have reached the GVWR, without adding a single item to the trailer. This means to sleep in this trailer, you need to remove all items, probably the battery and gas bottle as well. This trailer, therefore cannot fill the fuction it was designed for..... and is pretty much useless. SPORTMEN CLASSIC 181BH UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight)* 3,000 Dry Hitch Weight* 430 Dry Axle Weight* 2,570 NCC (Net Carrying Capacity) 500 GVWR 3,500 Were it me, I'd toss this specific rig back into KZ's court and see if they blink. I'm sure there's several here that have direct phone numbers to CS people at KZ that might give you a more clear answer. If what they say about the Rally is true, KZ seems to be really helpful and have been generous about giving out phone numbers and emails. Lyle |
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Sept 3, 2020 9:04:31 GMT -5
I have sent the specs of the rig, as per KZs, website and raised the question, as mentioned above. Should I receive a response, I will advise their understanding.
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Sept 6, 2020 6:20:02 GMT -5
I have heard back from KZ, however it seems to me they plan to investigate further. Should I receive more info I will post it. It does look however that within KZ there is some different schools of thought. It would be good to have this cleared up. See emails below. Read from the bottom up. ************* Thanks for sending me Michelle’s response. I will speak with my product and plant managers about the weight limits.Paul ************** Good morning Paul, Thank you for your response, the info was obtained from KZ, see below. However many in the KZ owners forum felt this was incorrect and should be taken furthr. Their thoughts are in line with your comments and the GVWR for a trailer, not an RV, relates to the unit while in transit. It is confusing for owners and buyers, therefore perhaps this could be better clarified in tbe stickers on the trailer Regards Email from KZ The net carrying capacity is the same whether stationary or hauling. So, yes, the weight limit does include persons sleeping in the unit overnight. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thank you, Michelle Michelle- Team 2 Technical Service Advisor e: mfredenburg@kz-rv.com – o: 866-472-5460 x191 www.kz-rv. *************** Good morning Paul, Thank you for your response, the info was obtained from KZ, see below. However the KZ owners forum felt this was incorrect and should be taken further. Their thoughts are in line with your comments and the GVWR for a trailer, not an RV, relates to the unit while in transit. It is confusing for owners and buyers, therefore perhaps this could be better clarified in tbe stickers on the trailers. Regards Email from KZ The net carrying capacity is the same whether stationary or hauling. So, yes, the weight limit does include persons sleeping in the unit overnight. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thank you, Michelle Michelle- Team 2 Technical Service Advisor e: mfredenburg@kz-rv.com – o: 866-472-5460 x191 www.kz-rv. ******** Thanks for your interest in the Sportsmen Classic 181BH travel trailer. I am not sure who advised you about the carrying weight when stationary, but you will not have any issue with a full load of camping equipment, food and people when the trailer is set up for use. The main goal of the GVWR is to keep the weight at or below 3500 lbs. when the trailer is in transit. Thanks, Paul Sirian – Regional Rep e: psirian@kz-rv.com – www.kz-rv.com |
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Post by laknox on Sept 8, 2020 10:02:08 GMT -5
Right hand is waving and left hand is clapping...
Lyle
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Post by Chuck on Sept 10, 2020 18:41:55 GMT -5
I know in the past there was talk at the rally about weights an that they were trying to keep the weight numbers down so they could fit some trailer into the 1/2 ton pickup range for more sales... I believe that to me this was not the way to do such but I am not the MFG, I believe if you go over to other MFG's you will see the same problem ... An till you see some kind of laws regarding the way trailers are MFG like the auto industry this will continue to happen, I believe you will never see such in our lifetime ... Now saying all the above, in most case's I believe that Kz builds a pretty solid trailer an will stand up to the weight you put in one .... But putting 8000pds in a 6000pd rated trailer is never a good idea an your looking for a disaster to happen ... I can tell you that when we are out an about for a few months we are loaded pretty darn heavy an are maybe a few pounds over what is rated for the trailer at times, but the trailer has stood up to the weight an punishment of I-70, 75, 80, 90, 94. 15, 44 an a number of back roads 
An some times I look like a drunken Sailor driving down the road avoiding the pot holes  Safe Travels Chuck |
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Sept 11, 2020 8:53:26 GMT -5
I agree, KZ build a pretty good trailer for the price and I have been happy with the one I have.
Would be nice though if they could get their act together on the GVWR though, technical support says the GVWR is static and regardless if you are travelling or stationary, the number must not be exceed. Sales, realistically understand that you can't sell a 5 sleeper with a cargo capacity of 500 pounds and expect to sell it, if the 500 pounds includes the 5 people overnight.
I doubt we will hear anymore from KZ on the subject, however if you are at a rally and see them there, it would be a good topic to raise.🥂
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Post by laknox on Sept 11, 2020 10:54:39 GMT -5
I agree, KZ build a pretty good trailer for the price and I have been happy with the one I have. Would be nice though if they could get their act together on the GVWR though, technical support says the GVWR is static and regardless if you are travelling or stationary, the number must not be exceed. Sales, realistically understand that you can't sell a 5 sleeper with a cargo capacity of 500 pounds and expect to sell it, if the 500 pounds includes the 5 people overnight. I doubt we will hear anymore from KZ on the subject, however if you are at a rally and see them there, it would be a good topic to raise.🥂 Thing is, this really needs a definitive answer from management and, yes, they =have= created a quandry for themselves (i.e. stepped on their d!cks) with these contradictory answers. I think that this is 100% a valid question to ask =every= RV mfr that makes towables. Lyle |
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Sept 12, 2020 12:49:33 GMT -5
I agree, possibly other owners could also email them. They can be contacted via the KZ website or email the persons who responded to me directly. Their contact info is in the thread.
If any definitive answer is obtained maybe it could be pasted in this thread.
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Post by Chuck on Sept 12, 2020 14:07:56 GMT -5
Believe it or not they do monitor the site an have at times answered a question or two But your right this would be a good question to ask eye to eye with management at a rally an I would put it on my rally question list if I were to go, haven't missed one yet except this year 
Safe Travels
Chuck
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rvtravels
Weekender RV’er
Sportmen classic 180QB.
Posts: 85
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Post by rvtravels on Oct 24, 2020 11:29:34 GMT -5
Out of interest, the same query was raised with Jayco (I believe they are also owned by Thor industries).
This is their reply regarding the CCC and the GVWR, as it applies to persons and goods in the trailer, stationary and mobile. I find their response what most of us would expect.
"Thankyou for your inquiry and for your interest in Jayco.
We appreciate the conciseness and observance of the information we provide. The Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) listed for the trailer pertains specifically to cargo loading when the trailer is to be towed on the roadway. While at the campsite, the load of cargo, luggage and occupants may exceed the CCC value listed on the label affixed to the trailer. While in motion on the highway, the weight limit should never be exceeded, including the load of the fresh water tank, if filled.
We do not have a specific load limit value for items in or on the trailer when parked at the site. Although seemingly ambiguous, we can only advise when fully loaded to the maximum permissible weight while on the roadway. The trailer, when parked, is able to support the added load/weight of occupants plus a reasonable load of temporary added items, including – but not limited to – fresh water and/or the weight added in the holding tanks."
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Post by laknox on Oct 26, 2020 10:40:06 GMT -5
Out of interest, the same query was raised with Jayco (I believe they are also owned by Thor industries). This is their reply regarding the CCC and the GVWR, as it applies to persons and goods in the trailer, stationary and mobile. I find their response what most of us would expect. "Thankyou for your inquiry and for your interest in Jayco. We appreciate the conciseness and observance of the information we provide. The Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) listed for the trailer pertains specifically to cargo loading when the trailer is to be towed on the roadway. While at the campsite, the load of cargo, luggage and occupants may exceed the CCC value listed on the label affixed to the trailer. While in motion on the highway, the weight limit should never be exceeded, including the load of the fresh water tank, if filled. We do not have a specific load limit value for items in or on the trailer when parked at the site. Although seemingly ambiguous, we can only advise when fully loaded to the maximum permissible weight while on the roadway. The trailer, when parked, is able to support the added load/weight of occupants plus a reasonable load of temporary added items, including – but not limited to – fresh water and/or the weight added in the holding tanks." That is, IMO, a definitive answer, as well as a logical one. Now, if KZ will just step up and give one as well, we'd all be happy little campers...literally. :-) Lyle |
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Just kidding...
