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Post by jfspry58 on Jan 14, 2021 17:29:46 GMT -5
As I see it, the problem with the entire above scenario is that the engineers who designed this unit placed a 3000 lb box on a single 3500 lb capacity axle leaving it with a very limited carrying capacity. Two tanks of propane, a battery, and ANY supplies in the trailer will almost certainly take up ALL of the stated cargo capacity. Given that normal hitch weight for a TT is 10-15% of the actual gross weight of the trailer, and even if you manage to pack lightly enough to stay within the cargo carrying capacity you will still be left with a minimum of 3000-3200 lbs on the axle of the trailer when fully loaded for travel. As Lyle stated above, the dynamic forces of a moving mass create a great deal of strain and fatigue upon that single axle. As also stated above, with the tongue jack and all four stabilizer jacks deployed, some of the weight is removed from the axle when stationary, but even if it weren't, the dynamic forces of the moving mass would be negated, so loading while stationary should be a non-issue. I too like Jayco's answer better but this guy said basically the same thing: "Thanks for your interest in the Sportsmen Classic 181BH travel trailer. I am not sure who advised you about the carrying weight when stationary, but you will not have any issue with a full load of camping equipment, food and people when the trailer is set up for use. The main goal of the GVWR is to keep the weight at or below 3500 lbs. when the trailer is in transit. Thanks, Paul Sirian – Regional Rep e: psirian@kz-rv.com – www.kz-rv.com." And once again, his answer was compelled by the single 3500 lb. capacity axle, BUT... IMHO, that trailer needs a heavier axle. Jay |
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Post by laknox on Jan 15, 2021 10:56:28 GMT -5
As I see it, the problem with the entire above scenario is that the engineers who designed this unit placed a 3000 lb box on a single 3500 lb capacity axle leaving it with a very limited carrying capacity. Two tanks of propane, a battery, and ANY supplies in the trailer will almost certainly take up ALL of the stated cargo capacity. Given that normal hitch weight for a TT is 10-15% of the actual gross weight of the trailer, and even if you manage to pack lightly enough to stay within the cargo carrying capacity you will still be left with a minimum of 3000-3200 lbs on the axle of the trailer when fully loaded for travel. As Lyle stated above, the dynamic forces of a moving mass create a great deal of strain and fatigue upon that single axle. As also stated above, with the tongue jack and all four stabilizer jacks deployed, some of the weight is removed from the axle when stationary, but even if it weren't, the dynamic forces of the moving mass would be negated, so loading while stationary should be a non-issue. I too like Jayco's answer better but this guy said basically the same thing: "Thanks for your interest in the Sportsmen Classic 181BH travel trailer. I am not sure who advised you about the carrying weight when stationary, but you will not have any issue with a full load of camping equipment, food and people when the trailer is set up for use. The main goal of the GVWR is to keep the weight at or below 3500 lbs. when the trailer is in transit. Thanks, Paul Sirian – Regional Rep e: psirian@kz-rv.com – www.kz-rv.com." And once again, his answer was compelled by the single 3500 lb. capacity axle, BUT... IMHO, that trailer needs a heavier axle. Jay Problem is, Jay, that the trailer's engineered as a whole. Yeah, you could put a 4,500 lb axle under it, but will the frame, specifically in the tongue area, handle the extra load. The advantage of a bumper pull trailer is that you =can= carry a lot of what you'd like inside the trailer in/on your tow vehicle, then move it when you set up camp. That's the nice thing about WD hitches. :-) This being said, I've known more than one person who fishplated the entire frame on their trailer and put heavier axles under it to combat this issue. At the same time, I've seen a couple redneck solutions where people have simply put a travel trailer, axles removed, onto a heavy flatbed trailer. :-) Lyle |
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Post by jfspry58 on Jan 16, 2021 9:27:23 GMT -5
Problem is, Jay, that the trailer's engineered as a whole. Yeah, you could put a 4,500 lb axle under it, but will the frame, specifically in the tongue area, handle the extra load. The advantage of a bumper pull trailer is that you =can= carry a lot of what you'd like inside the trailer in/on your tow vehicle, then move it when you set up camp. That's the nice thing about WD hitches. :-) This being said, I've known more than one person who fishplated the entire frame on their trailer and put heavier axles under it to combat this issue. At the same time, I've seen a couple redneck solutions where people have simply put a travel trailer, axles removed, onto a heavy flatbed trailer. :-) Lyle Perhaps I should have thought my initial response through a little better. After doing so, I realized that even though the cargo capacity seems to be inadequate, there is a large demand for trailers engineered light enough to be towed by vehicles with very limited payload capacity and GVWR. For my personal needs I would want a trailer to have adequate capacity to carry everything my DW and I want to take on a trip. Maybe that’s why I had one travel trailer followed by a string of 5th wheels 😁 Jay |
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Post by Chuck on Jan 16, 2021 11:44:07 GMT -5
I believe a TT for allot of young family's is a starting point into camping, yes there are older folks but like Jay down the road they move up to 5th wheels when the family grows an they need more room to carry all the junk ... Over the years I have had slide-in's, TT, Class C's an now 5th wheels an yes Tents, I liken to boats, you start out with a row boat an a little motor, then the speed boat an finally the yacht ... So I think the younger family's can get away with lighter trailers because they pack lighter, their needs are not a great as when we get older an the family starts to grow ... Once the family grows they move up to larger TT's ... Then as the children grow they need more room to carry more junk an more privacy thus moving up to a 5th wheel, but how many think about weight of axles an how much junk can they carry, I think maybe 40 to 50 percent ... Then after retirement they want a home away from home which means conferrable living an room to spread out an have room for the grand-kids when needed ...
Getting back to the subject along the way some but again maybe 40 to 50 percent learn about weight distribution, hitches an actual gross weight of trailer's they have ... Problem is that allot of new owners buy a TT or even a
5th wheel with little knowledge of what their tow vehicle an pull or the weight of the trailer an the sales people
sell them a bill of goods saying everything is ok ...
After the fact some not all new owners come to different forms or learn from pulling their home on wheel that they
may have made a large mistake in both what they can pull an what they can put in their trailer to camp ...
I'm sure we all have seen the tail wagging the dog (trailer swaying badly) going down the road an the driver holding on for dear life or the trailer hitch almost touching the ground along with the back bumper an the front wheels of the tow vehicle barely touching the pavement Ugh !!!
I believe if I owned a RV dealer ship I would have a class for all new or perspective owners before they even bought a trailer on weights of trailer, what a vehicle could pull an trailer hitches, I'd more than likely go broke because I'd scare people LOL
Safe Travels 
Chuck
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Post by jfspry58 on Jan 16, 2021 20:18:55 GMT -5
I believe a TT for allot of young family's is a starting point into camping, yes there are older folks but like Jay down the road they move up to 5th wheels when the family grows an they need more room to carry all the junk ... Over the years I have had slide-in's, TT, Class C's an now 5th wheels an yes Tents, I liken to boats, you start out with a row boat an a little motor, then the speed boat an finally the yacht ... So I think the younger family's can get away with lighter trailers because they pack lighter, their needs are not a great as when we get older an the family starts to grow ... Once the family grows they move up to larger TT's ... Then as the children grow they need more room to carry more junk an more privacy thus moving up to a 5th wheel, but how many think about weight of axles an how much junk can they carry, I think maybe 40 to 50 percent ... Then after retirement they want a home away from home which means conferrable living an room to spread out an have room for the grand-kids when needed ...
Getting back to the subject along the way some but again maybe 40 to 50 percent learn about weight distribution, hitches an actual gross weight of trailer's they have ... Problem is that allot of new owners buy a TT or even a
5th wheel with little knowledge of what their tow vehicle an pull or the weight of the trailer an the sales people
sell them a bill of goods saying everything is ok ...
After the fact some not all new owners come to different forms or learn from pulling their home on wheel that they
may have made a large mistake in both what they can pull an what they can put in their trailer to camp ...
I'm sure we all have seen the tail wagging the dog (trailer swaying badly) going down the road an the driver holding on for dear life or the trailer hitch almost touching the ground along with the back bumper an the front wheels of the tow vehicle barely touching the pavement Ugh !!!
I believe if I owned a RV dealer ship I would have a class for all new or perspective owners before they even bought a trailer on weights of trailer, what a vehicle could pull an trailer hitches, I'd more than likely go broke because I'd scare people LOL
Safe Travels
Chuck
That was my point about it being too heavy for the axle it is mounted on. So many don’t understand weights, capacities, and limitations that they will unknowingly overload it simply taking the things with them that they want for their trip, and especially those buying their first RV, which is a prime market for these smaller, lighter, and less expensive travel trailers. I still believe it would be wise to not build a trailer with such a small cargo capacity simply to avoid the “tail wagging the dog scenario.” And even for those of us who know better, it’s still really easy to take more than we need, or at least it sure seems to work that way for me. Jay |
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Post by nvguy on Jan 17, 2021 0:55:20 GMT -5
I believe a TT for allot of young family's is a starting point into camping, yes there are older folks but like Jay down the road they move up to 5th wheels when the family grows an they need more room to carry all the junk ... Over the years I have had slide-in's, TT, Class C's an now 5th wheels an yes Tents, I liken to boats, you start out with a row boat an a little motor, then the speed boat an finally the yacht ... So I think the younger family's can get away with lighter trailers because they pack lighter, their needs are not a great as when we get older an the family starts to grow ... Once the family grows they move up to larger TT's ... Then as the children grow they need more room to carry more junk an more privacy thus moving up to a 5th wheel, but how many think about weight of axles an how much junk can they carry, I think maybe 40 to 50 percent ... Then after retirement they want a home away from home which means conferrable living an room to spread out an have room for the grand-kids when needed ...
Getting back to the subject along the way some but again maybe 40 to 50 percent learn about weight distribution, hitches an actual gross weight of trailer's they have ... Problem is that allot of new owners buy a TT or even a
5th wheel with little knowledge of what their tow vehicle an pull or the weight of the trailer an the sales people
sell them a bill of goods saying everything is ok ...
After the fact some not all new owners come to different forms or learn from pulling their home on wheel that they
may have made a large mistake in both what they can pull an what they can put in their trailer to camp ...
I'm sure we all have seen the tail wagging the dog (trailer swaying badly) going down the road an the driver holding on for dear life or the trailer hitch almost touching the ground along with the back bumper an the front wheels of the tow vehicle barely touching the pavement Ugh !!!
I believe if I owned a RV dealer ship I would have a class for all new or perspective owners before they even bought a trailer on weights of trailer, what a vehicle could pull an trailer hitches, I'd more than likely go broke because I'd scare people LOL
Safe Travels
Chuck
Believe it or not, years ago the owner of the dealership I worked at tried offering beginning classes to all for free, and got a dismal response. I have to assume most thought it was going to be a "trapped in a room" timeshare type sales pitch. I thought it was a good idea, would have made some of my walk throughs much easier. |
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Post by Chuck on Jan 17, 2021 14:45:53 GMT -5
I believe a TT for allot of young family's is a starting point into camping, yes there are older folks but like Jay down the road they move up to 5th wheels when the family grows an they need more room to carry all the junk ... Over the years I have had slide-in's, TT, Class C's an now 5th wheels an yes Tents, I liken to boats, you start out with a row boat an a little motor, then the speed boat an finally the yacht ... So I think the younger family's can get away with lighter trailers because they pack lighter, their needs are not a great as when we get older an the family starts to grow ... Once the family grows they move up to larger TT's ... Then as the children grow they need more room to carry more junk an more privacy thus moving up to a 5th wheel, but how many think about weight of axles an how much junk can they carry, I think maybe 40 to 50 percent ... Then after retirement they want a home away from home which means conferrable living an room to spread out an have room for the grand-kids when needed ...
Getting back to the subject along the way some but again maybe 40 to 50 percent learn about weight distribution, hitches an actual gross weight of trailer's they have ... Problem is that allot of new owners buy a TT or even a
5th wheel with little knowledge of what their tow vehicle an pull or the weight of the trailer an the sales people
sell them a bill of goods saying everything is ok ...
After the fact some not all new owners come to different forms or learn from pulling their home on wheel that they
may have made a large mistake in both what they can pull an what they can put in their trailer to camp ...
I'm sure we all have seen the tail wagging the dog (trailer swaying badly) going down the road an the driver holding on for dear life or the trailer hitch almost touching the ground along with the back bumper an the front wheels of the tow vehicle barely touching the pavement Ugh !!!
I believe if I owned a RV dealer ship I would have a class for all new or perspective owners before they even bought a trailer on weights of trailer, what a vehicle could pull an trailer hitches, I'd more than likely go broke because I'd scare people LOL
Safe Travels
Chuck
Believe it or not, years ago the owner of the dealership I worked at tried offering beginning classes to all for free, and got a dismal response. I have to assume most thought it was going to be a "trapped in a room" timeshare type sales pitch. I thought it was a good idea, would have made some of my walk throughs much easier.
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Post by Chuck on Jan 17, 2021 14:51:18 GMT -5
Ops screwed up on NVGUYS post ,  I think it should be mandatory that before you do your PDI you take a class of at least an hour ... The sale person should state this is not a sales pitch but a needed "HOW TO Do" class on trailers... Who know owners might learn something instead of trial by fire 
Safe Travels
Chuck
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Post by jfspry58 on Jan 18, 2021 9:24:58 GMT -5
Ops screwed up on NVGUYS post , View AttachmentI think it should be mandatory that before you do your PDI you take a class of at least an hour ... The sale person should state this is not a sales pitch but a needed "HOW TO Do" class on trailers... Who know owners might learn something instead of trial by fire View Attachment
Safe Travels
Chuck
Totally agree Chuck. As is proven every day, none of us know so much that we cannot learn more from others. And even if nothing else is gained, a reminder is always good. Jay |
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Post by laknox on Jan 18, 2021 10:49:39 GMT -5
I believe a TT for allot of young family's is a starting point into camping, yes there are older folks but like Jay down the road they move up to 5th wheels when the family grows an they need more room to carry all the junk ... Over the years I have had slide-in's, TT, Class C's an now 5th wheels an yes Tents, I liken to boats, you start out with a row boat an a little motor, then the speed boat an finally the yacht ... So I think the younger family's can get away with lighter trailers because they pack lighter, their needs are not a great as when we get older an the family starts to grow ... Once the family grows they move up to larger TT's ... Then as the children grow they need more room to carry more junk an more privacy thus moving up to a 5th wheel, but how many think about weight of axles an how much junk can they carry, I think maybe 40 to 50 percent ... Then after retirement they want a home away from home which means conferrable living an room to spread out an have room for the grand-kids when needed ...
Getting back to the subject along the way some but again maybe 40 to 50 percent learn about weight distribution, hitches an actual gross weight of trailer's they have ... Problem is that allot of new owners buy a TT or even a
5th wheel with little knowledge of what their tow vehicle an pull or the weight of the trailer an the sales people
sell them a bill of goods saying everything is ok ...
After the fact some not all new owners come to different forms or learn from pulling their home on wheel that they
may have made a large mistake in both what they can pull an what they can put in their trailer to camp ...
I'm sure we all have seen the tail wagging the dog (trailer swaying badly) going down the road an the driver holding on for dear life or the trailer hitch almost touching the ground along with the back bumper an the front wheels of the tow vehicle barely touching the pavement Ugh !!!
I believe if I owned a RV dealer ship I would have a class for all new or perspective owners before they even bought a trailer on weights of trailer, what a vehicle could pull an trailer hitches, I'd more than likely go broke because I'd scare people LOL
Safe Travels
Chuck
That was my point about it being too heavy for the axle it is mounted on. So many don’t understand weights, capacities, and limitations that they will unknowingly overload it simply taking the things with them that they want for their trip, and especially those buying their first RV, which is a prime market for these smaller, lighter, and less expensive travel trailers. I still believe it would be wise to not build a trailer with such a small cargo capacity simply to avoid the “tail wagging the dog scenario.” And even for those of us who know better, it’s still really easy to take more than we need, or at least it sure seems to work that way for me. Jay Again, Jay, IMO the axles aren't the weakest point in most cases; it's the frame, especially the tongue, followed by the tires. As for the "tail wagging the dog", even a very lightly loaded trailer will sway if not loaded =correctly=, i.e., with enough weight on the tongue. Again, you =can= carry a lot of the heavier items in your tow vehicle with a WD hitch and put the lighter, more bulky stuff, in the trailer. You =do= still have to worry about the weights on the TV and your combined weight. All this is where you need to find your closest scale and play around with your loading. Lyle |
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Post by laknox on Jan 18, 2021 10:59:56 GMT -5
Ops screwed up on NVGUYS post , View AttachmentI think it should be mandatory that before you do your PDI you take a class of at least an hour ... The sale person should state this is not a sales pitch but a needed "HOW TO Do" class on trailers... Who know owners might learn something instead of trial by fire View Attachment
Safe Travels
Chuck
Money, plain and simple. Costs the dealers to pay the employee to teach the class. Now, if there were a rash of newbies coming in and complaining to dealers about "you should have told us" and threatening legal action, especially as a class action, then you might see some basic classes pop up. Hell, why don't the various RV groups offer free classes for newbs? (I wouldn't count Good Sam these days, since they're mostly just a shill for Emperor Marcus' empire and would likely turn it into a sales pitch.) Escapees, Full Time Families, Family Motorcoach, etc., could come up with a common "course" and hold teaching days for newbs. Maybe even come up with some more advanced courses for people wanting to move up in RV class. Lyle |
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Post by laknox on Jan 18, 2021 11:03:55 GMT -5
Ops screwed up on NVGUYS post , View AttachmentI think it should be mandatory that before you do your PDI you take a class of at least an hour ... The sale person should state this is not a sales pitch but a needed "HOW TO Do" class on trailers... Who know owners might learn something instead of trial by fire View Attachment
Safe Travels
Chuck
Totally agree Chuck. As is proven every day, none of us know so much that we cannot learn more from others. And even if nothing else is gained, a reminder is always good. Jay When I was learning to run a small Case portable steam engine back in college, we were always reminded =every time we fired=, that the first 3 rules of running a boiler are, 1) water level, 2) water level, 3) water level! :-) Drilled into us from day one, as well as the ways to check it and what to do to correct it. Lyle |
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Post by jfspry58 on Jan 18, 2021 17:44:02 GMT -5
That was my point about it being too heavy for the axle it is mounted on. So many don’t understand weights, capacities, and limitations that they will unknowingly overload it simply taking the things with them that they want for their trip, and especially those buying their first RV, which is a prime market for these smaller, lighter, and less expensive travel trailers. I still believe it would be wise to not build a trailer with such a small cargo capacity simply to avoid the “tail wagging the dog scenario.” And even for those of us who know better, it’s still really easy to take more than we need, or at least it sure seems to work that way for me. Jay Again, Jay, IMO the axles aren't the weakest point in most cases; it's the frame, especially the tongue, followed by the tires. As for the "tail wagging the dog", even a very lightly loaded trailer will sway if not loaded =correctly=, i.e., with enough weight on the tongue. Again, you =can= carry a lot of the heavier items in your tow vehicle with a WD hitch and put the lighter, more bulky stuff, in the trailer. You =do= still have to worry about the weights on the TV and your combined weight. All this is where you need to find your closest scale and play around with your loading. Lyle I agree that the axle is not necessarily the weakest point in most cases; however, IMO it is a good starting point to the conversation because it is the part which has a given weight limit placed upon it. My statement is not based upon the axle's weakness but on the lack of differential between the capacity of the axle and the weight of the frame and structure resting upon it. Whenever I see a trailer (any kind) with a cargo carrying capacity of only 500-600 lbs, I immediately know that it will likely be exceeded. Due to people's propensity to load anything and everything they want or need (or in many cases think they need) in the trailer regardless of rating, I believe it would be a better arrangement if they built it so that there is greater cargo carrying capacity, regardless of how the manufacturer chooses to do so. I also agree that the rest of the trailer, especially the tongue and hitch, would have to be engineered in such a way to provide strength equal to or greater than that of the axle. In a perfect world this conversation would be irrelevant because everyone would know their weights and capacities and abide by them, but we also know that is not likely to happen. In the meantime, it gives us old guys something to talk about. Have a good one Lyle! Jay |
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Post by laknox on Jan 19, 2021 10:32:14 GMT -5
Again, Jay, IMO the axles aren't the weakest point in most cases; it's the frame, especially the tongue, followed by the tires. As for the "tail wagging the dog", even a very lightly loaded trailer will sway if not loaded =correctly=, i.e., with enough weight on the tongue. Again, you =can= carry a lot of the heavier items in your tow vehicle with a WD hitch and put the lighter, more bulky stuff, in the trailer. You =do= still have to worry about the weights on the TV and your combined weight. All this is where you need to find your closest scale and play around with your loading. Lyle I agree that the axle is not necessarily the weakest point in most cases; however, IMO it is a good starting point to the conversation because it is the part which has a given weight limit placed upon it. My statement is not based upon the axle's weakness but on the lack of differential between the capacity of the axle and the weight of the frame and structure resting upon it. Whenever I see a trailer (any kind) with a cargo carrying capacity of only 500-600 lbs, I immediately know that it will likely be exceeded. Due to people's propensity to load anything and everything they want or need (or in many cases think they need) in the trailer regardless of rating, I believe it would be a better arrangement if they built it so that there is greater cargo carrying capacity, regardless of how the manufacturer chooses to do so. I also agree that the rest of the trailer, especially the tongue and hitch, would have to be engineered in such a way to provide strength equal to or greater than that of the axle. In a perfect world this conversation would be irrelevant because everyone would know their weights and capacities and abide by them, but we also know that is not likely to happen. In the meantime, it gives us old guys something to talk about. Have a good one Lyle! Jay Don't forget that they do figure in how much weight will be on the tongue/pin. You have a 5k GVW trailer, the mfr figures that about 500 lbs, 10%, will be carried on the tongue so they can "get away with" putting a 4500 lb axle under it. Same with FWs. Now, GN trailers usually have axles that will carry the entire GVW of the trailer. I know our 30' PJ triple axle does as did all the Big Tex trailers wer looked at. Lyle |
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Post by jfspry58 on Jan 21, 2021 10:06:40 GMT -5
Don't forget that they do figure in how much weight will be on the tongue/pin. You have a 5k GVW trailer, the mfr figures that about 500 lbs, 10%, will be carried on the tongue so they can "get away with" putting a 4500 lb axle under it. Same with FWs. Now, GN trailers usually have axles that will carry the entire GVW of the trailer. I know our 30' PJ triple axle does as did all the Big Tex trailers wer looked at. Lyle I've noticed that as well on some trailers. I have an enclosed cargo trailer with 2 4500 lb axles under it yet the gvwr for it is 9000 lbs. I would have thought given the expected tongue weight it would have been upward toward 9900. Jay |
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Post by laknox on Jan 21, 2021 10:14:05 GMT -5
Don't forget that they do figure in how much weight will be on the tongue/pin. You have a 5k GVW trailer, the mfr figures that about 500 lbs, 10%, will be carried on the tongue so they can "get away with" putting a 4500 lb axle under it. Same with FWs. Now, GN trailers usually have axles that will carry the entire GVW of the trailer. I know our 30' PJ triple axle does as did all the Big Tex trailers wer looked at. Lyle I've noticed that as well on some trailers. I have an enclosed cargo trailer with 2 4500 lb axles under it yet the gvwr for it is 9000 lbs. I would have thought given the expected tongue weight it would have been upward toward 9900. Jay It's because utility trailer mfrs are smart enough to know that us yokels =will= overload stuff, so the cost of putting beefier axles underneath vs a fight over a broken trailer/payload/damages, is =way= cheaper. :-) Too bad the RV industry can't figure that out. Lyle |
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