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Post by sanchin on Apr 14, 2018 18:03:54 GMT -5
Bad news! I turned off the heater switch, then connect the shore power with all breakers off. Both combos (30A and heater) and (30A and GFI) still tripped. Does this means not the heater causing the issue? I tried to dig into the wiring but so far didn't see anything surprised. Of course I couldn't see those wires hiring under or inside of the trailer. I took some pictures. Also, I checked the heater switch because I found a video regarding to Suburban SW6DE Water Heater with Faulty Electrical Switch. However, the multimeter shows that the switch is in working order. I also open up the plastic cover, but seems okay to me. Please see the pictures. What is next? What else I can do? |
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Post by lynnmor on Apr 14, 2018 19:11:00 GMT -5
Bad news! I turned off the heater switch. Then connect the coach to shore power with all breakers off. Both combos (30A and heater) and (30A and GFI) still tripped. I start digging into the wiring but so far didn't see anything surprised. Of course I couldn't see those wires hiring under or inside of the trailer. What is next? What else I can do? Since the system works on other garage outlets, are they perhaps protected with a 20 amp breaker, and the 15 you are having trouble with might not be quite enough? Remove the front cover so that you can see the wires going to the breakers. Remove one wire at a time (3 wires total} that goes to the suspect circuits. Since the converter and water heater are supposedly wired to one 20 amp breaker, there may be a wire nut to combine the two, but who knows. Retest again and hopefully we can narrow down the faulty circuit. It still concerns me that the water heating element might have the neutral shorted to ground. Pull both wires off the element and retest. It also concerns me that the converter and the water heater are shown to be on one breaker, both are high load items and this is crazy. You should be able to verify if indeed it is wired that way when you have the cover off. The converter will draw considerable power when the battery is discharged and pulling that wire will tell us if that load is part of the problem. |
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Post by sanchin on Apr 14, 2018 19:24:08 GMT -5
Quick question: the cover in the heater says "push to reset" but there is no feeling or pushing while I tried to push. Is that normal?
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Post by sanchin on Apr 14, 2018 19:40:31 GMT -5
Since the system works on other garage outlets, are they perhaps protected with a 20 amp breaker, and the 15 you are having trouble with might not be quite enough? Remove the front cover so that you can see the wires going to the breakers. Remove one wire at a time (3 wires total} that goes to the suspect circuits. Since the converter and water heater are supposedly wired to one 20 amp breaker, there may be a wire nut to combine the two, but who knows. Retest again and hopefully we can narrow down the faulty circuit. It still concerns me that the water heating element might have the neutral shorted to ground. Pull both wires off the element and retest. It also concerns me that the converter and the water heater are shown to be on one breaker, both are high load items and this is crazy. You should be able to verify if indeed it is wired that way when you have the cover off. The converter will draw considerable power when the battery is discharged and pulling that wire will tell us if that load is part of the problem. I just checked my house power panel. The garage outlet is also under a 15A breaker. Here's the pictures of the breaker wiring. And the order of the breakers is like this: MAIN 30A A/C 20A Microwave 15A Water heater/converter 20A GFI 15A Recepts 15A |
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Post by sanchin on Apr 14, 2018 19:41:05 GMT -5
I found that one wire is melting but doesn't seem to burn. Please see. Attachments:
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Post by lynnmor on Apr 14, 2018 20:00:18 GMT -5
The reset button isn’t the problem and it probably will make no click unless it tripped, so normal.
I can’t see where the wires split to go one way to the converter and the other way to the water heater, but it must be in that rat nest somewhere. Find it and connect one at a time for testing.
That damaged wire appears to be a slash job from the Amish craftsmen, check that mess carefully. Did you know that Amish have no electric or plumbing in their own homes? I have seen too much of this shoddy workmanship.
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Post by Edd505 on Apr 14, 2018 20:36:58 GMT -5
Thank you for your suggestion. The cord that I used to connect the trailer and the power, is the same one that I used for the hybrid trailer. The hybrid trailer is also 30amp. I can't really see the letter from the cord, it should be 3x12AWG 300V... etc. My house GFI is 15amp, and as I said no problem when connected with the previous Jayco 30amp trailer. I could get 20amp GFI from Homedepot but couldn't find 30amp one. Also, the house breaker which connect to the outside GFI socket is just 15A, would that be a problem if I upgrade the GFI socket to 20 or 30a. It kinda doesn't make sense. Correct me if I am wrong. The garage socket without GFI should be also 15a, but there is no problem after connected. The household breaker didn't trip. Not sure I under stand this. It does not trip a standard 15amp breaker but it trips the 15amp GFI? That could be just a weak GFI might be worth a change to a 20 just to make sure you have a good GFI circut. Your 30AMP RV cord should be fine just didn't know if you were using a standard extension cord. lynnmor is walking you through trouble shooting so I'll let him continue, Good luck. |
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Post by sanchin on Apr 14, 2018 21:14:11 GMT -5
Thank you for your suggestion. The cord that I used to connect the trailer and the power, is the same one that I used for the hybrid trailer. The hybrid trailer is also 30amp. I can't really see the letter from the cord, it should be 3x12AWG 300V... etc. My house GFI is 15amp, and as I said no problem when connected with the previous Jayco 30amp trailer. I could get 20amp GFI from Homedepot but couldn't find 30amp one. Also, the house breaker which connect to the outside GFI socket is just 15A, would that be a problem if I upgrade the GFI socket to 20 or 30a. It kinda doesn't make sense. Correct me if I am wrong. The garage socket without GFI should be also 15a, but there is no problem after connected. The household breaker didn't trip. Not sure I under stand this. It does not trip a standard 15amp breaker but it trips the 15amp GFI? That could be just a weak GFI might be worth a change to a 20 just to make sure you have a good GFI circut. Your 30AMP RV cord should be fine just didn't know if you were using a standard extension cord. lynnmor is walking you through trouble shooting so I'll let him continue, Good luck. Yes, it does not trip the 15A breaker but trip a 15A GFI. I thought that maybe something wrong with the GFI so I already replaced to a brand new 15A GFI, but problem still existed. Questions, put a 20A GFI on a 15A breaker circuit, is this any good? |
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Post by lynnmor on Apr 15, 2018 9:09:13 GMT -5
Questions, put a 20A GFI on a 15A breaker circuit, is this any good? If you are talking about an outlet, it won't hurt anything, but likely will not cure the problem. |
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Post by sanchin on Apr 17, 2018 23:22:57 GMT -5
I re-arranged the wires a bit, so it's in a nicer mess now. There are 2 wires connected together to the 20A (heater/converter). Basically one set is from somewhere, and another is connected to the silver box at the bottom (I believe that is the converter). So I disconnected the converter wire while keeping the heater wire. Good news! It didn't trip. However, it still trip with the combo of the Main 30A and GFI. I also turn on the heater switch and it still didn't trip. So we can assume it is not the problem of the heater. Is that mean something wrong with the converter? Do I need to replace it? Should I add another 20A breaker to separate the heater and converter? What is next to check? Thanks. Attachments:
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Post by lynnmor on Apr 18, 2018 7:19:30 GMT -5
Add another breaker for the converter, they are available at HD or Lowe's. If you get a double, you will have a spare breaker. The converter may be bad, or just a wiring problem with it. If you can power it up with everything else off, check the voltage at the battery, it should be 13.6 to 14.4. A bad battery can give the converter problems, so charge the battery completely with a stand alone charger and then take it to Advance Autoparts or AutoZone for free testing. If you need to replace the converter, no great loss, the WFCO that you have is cheap junk. Best Converter would give you great help selecting a quality converter and have fair pricing. I would still service the water heater. Annually, the anode rod needs to be removed, inspected and possibly replaced. Video Flush the tank while the anode is out. Video With the problems you have been having, I would pull the heating element as well and inspect it for damage. Elements are often damaged when the power is turned on without the tank being full of water. A partial or complete short between ground and neutral is possible. Video |
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Post by sanchin on Apr 18, 2018 13:02:57 GMT -5
Add another breaker for the converter, they are available at HD or Lowe's. If you get a double, you will have a spare breaker. The converter may be bad, or just a wiring problem with it. If you can power it up with everything else off, check the voltage at the battery, it should be 13.6 to 14.4. A bad battery can give the converter problems, so charge the battery completely with a stand alone charger and then take it to Advance Autoparts or AutoZone for free testing. If you need to replace the converter, no great loss, the WFCO that you have is cheap junk. Best Converter would give you great help selecting a quality converter and have fair pricing. I would still service the water heater. Annually, the anode rod needs to be removed, inspected and possibly replaced. Video Flush the tank while the anode is out. Video With the problems you have been having, I would pull the heating element as well and inspect it for damage. Elements are often damaged when the power is turned on without the tank being full of water. A partial or complete short between ground and neutral is possible. VideoSure, I plan to service the heater too. Ordered a new anode rod already. What does the factory cheap converter do? AC to DC? DC to AC? Or both? If I need to replace it, I probably will get a better one. According to the previous owner, the batteries (two 6V) were replaced last year. Anyway, I will check the voltage later. The combo of 30A and GFI are still tripped, how or where should I check? I tried to trace the wires but very quick it goes into the wall. Thanks. |
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Post by lynnmor on Apr 18, 2018 13:24:53 GMT -5
The converter changes 120 volt AC to 12 volt DC. That 12 volts is just a nominal figure and the actual voltage is higher. Since it charges the battery, 13.2, 13.6 & 14.4 volts are needed. When a battery is seriously discharged the converter should go to the highest voltage and step down as required. Many report that the cheap WFCO units never reach the 14.4 level. Usually the factory wiring is too small or too long and that too is a big part of the problem.
The age of the batteries is meaningless if they were not kept FULLY charged at all times, except during necessary use. They should never be discharged below 50% at any time. Now your 6 volt batteries will take a bit more abuse. You should have a battery switch to disconnect whenever the trailer is not connected to a running tow vehicle or to 120 volt power for any significant length of time.
The GFI circuit probably is most, if not all outlets in the unit. Unplug everything and don’t forget the one behind the refrigerator and the outside outlet. You could have a fault most anywhere on that system. I don’t like the outlets used in trailers and poor installation can have wires messed up on them. After you pull one out, you will see what I mean.
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Post by sanchin on Apr 18, 2018 13:31:18 GMT -5
The converter changes 120 volt AC to 12 volt DC. That 12 volts is just a nominal figure and the actual voltage is higher. Since it charges the battery, 13.2, 13.6 & 14.4 volts are needed. When a battery is seriously discharged the converter should go to the highest voltage and step down as required. Many report that the cheap WFCO units never reach the 14.4 level. Usually the factory wiring is too small or too long and that too is a big part of the problem. The age of the batteries is meaningless if they were not kept FULLY charged at all times, except during necessary use. They should never be discharged below 50% at any time. Now your 6 volt batteries will take a bit more abuse. You should have a battery switch to disconnect whenever the trailer is not connected to a running tow vehicle or to 120 volt power for any significant length of time. So the "black, white, green" wires on the left of the converter, are the input from AC 120V, and "red, white" wires on the right are the output to DC 12V? The converter acts as a charger? Or converter = charger? What other function does the converter do? Thanks. |
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Post by lynnmor on Apr 18, 2018 13:35:56 GMT -5
You might want to get the installation manual by searching your model number of the converter. I think you are correct on the wires, but I can’t say for sure using this small phone.
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Post by sanchin on Apr 19, 2018 1:24:06 GMT -5
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Post by lynnmor on Apr 19, 2018 7:18:44 GMT -5
You DO NOT want to buy another WFCO converter, call Best Converter for a quality, direct fit, 55 amp converter. Did you prove that the current converter is defective? The breaker appears to be correct. They should be available in 15/15, 15/20 & 20/20. I added a 20 amp circuit for an electric heater, something to consider. |
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Post by sanchin on Apr 19, 2018 19:42:41 GMT -5
You DO NOT want to buy another WFCO converter, call Best Converter for a quality, direct fit, 55 amp converter. Did you prove that the current converter is defective? The breaker appears to be correct. They should be available in 15/15, 15/20 & 20/20. I added a 20 amp circuit for an electric heater, something to consider. Alright. I look it up and check again today. First, I found that the GFI breaker connected to a outlet (I called it outlet A) beside the main power box. There are 2 more wires set connected to Outlets A. I believe those 2 set of wires are for Outlet B and Outlet C. I disconnected the Outlet B and C's wires, and test again. The GFI breaker didn't trip. Therefore, I assume that something wrong with the wires for Outlet B and C. I will solve it later. Now, the 30A and the heater/converter is still tripped. The battery voltage was only 12.54V. I now disconnected it and charging. Will see. I found the WF8995 converter manual online. The troubleshooting part said to disconnect the battery, then check the voltage with no load. Mine is reading 13.78V, which is functioning well according to the manual. What is next? |
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Post by lynnmor on Apr 19, 2018 21:02:06 GMT -5
Apparently the breaker didn’t trip with the battery disconnected since you were able to measure voltage. Let’s see if that battery charges up., it should measure about 12.7 when charged. Then take it to AutoZone or Advance Autoparts for a free load test. A battery that is bad can put an excessive load on the converter. With a proven good and charged battery back in, the voltage should be 13.6 with the converter operating.
At least pull the wires off the water heater element and retest, both ways as you previously have been doing.
Be sure that everything is unplugged from all outlets and retest the GFI problem. The outlets are daisy chained and troublesome to disconnect and reconnect wires, but you may have to take your best guess as to where to start.
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Post by sanchin on Apr 19, 2018 21:34:00 GMT -5
Apparently the breaker didn’t trip with the battery disconnected since you were able to measure voltage. Let’s see if that battery charges up., it should measure about 12.7 when charged. Then take it to AutoZone or Advance Autoparts for a free load test. A battery that is bad can put an excessive load on the converter. With a proven good and charged battery back in, the voltage should be 13.6 with the converter operating. At least pull the wires off the water heater element and retest, both ways as you previously have been doing. Be sure that everything is unplugged from all outlets and retest the GFI problem. The outlets are daisy chained and troublesome to disconnect and reconnect wires, but you may have to take your best guess as to where to start. Actually, the GFI still tripped with the battery disconnected (no load) from the converter. It may be because of no load, the converter thinks the battery is dead (0V). Anyway, will charge up the battery and see. I did disconnect the heater wire from the 20A breaker when testing with the combo of main 30A and converter 20A. This is because I need to narrow down the problem, even after a few test, I don't think it's the heater issue anyway. I will deal with the GFI and outlet later. That's not as important as the converter tripping my GFI outlet at home. I feel more comfortable to plug the trailer into that GFI outlet. Actually, I took out the whole converter case and checked the wires. All wires are visually in good shape. No wear out wires. I re-arranged some wires a little bit. I also replaced the GFI outlet from a 15A to 20A. However, you're right, this does not cure the problem. The combo of main 30A and converter 20A still tripped with 20A GFI outlet. What else should I look for while waiting the battery to be fully charged? Thanks. |
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