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Post by laknox on Aug 14, 2020 12:02:03 GMT -5
OK, so our 'docker last weekend took us up, and back down, a pretty rough road for about a mile. I crawled that last mile in 4LO simply to keep things from rockin' 'n rollin' too badly. (We do this every year and this is the 2nd year I've had the KZ up this same road.) I thought we'd survived the drive in good order but, the 2nd day there, the sliding door into the BR came off the track rollers. Now, this track is different than any I've seen before in that it's a double track with 3 rollers on the carriage; 2 on one side and 1 on the other. From the carriage, there's a little stud that drops down and goes into a fixture screwed to the top of the door. This fixture then has a small arm to lock around the stud and hold it in place. Have any of you had one of these drop off? If so, how did you fix it? Short of having some very long, slender tools, the only way I can think of doing this is to remove the facia trim on the inside of the BR. Anyone?
TIA,
Lyle
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Post by nvguy on Aug 14, 2020 21:55:08 GMT -5
Yep, had them drop off, and yes, unless you have long skinny tools, the facia has to come off.
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Post by laknox on Aug 16, 2020 9:16:40 GMT -5
Yep, had them drop off, and yes, unless you have long skinny tools, the facia has to come off. Sh!t... Thanks. Lyle |
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Post by laknox on Aug 18, 2020 15:58:34 GMT -5
Took the FW back to my shop to store it and ran into my cousin's family, the ones that are building the bus (www.beginningfromthismorning.com). They have the same type of sliding doors, but =fancy= ones, with soft open/close tracks. Juan, cousin's husband, is so f'n brilliant that he put a metal strip on the side of the roller track and added several counter-sunk =magnets= to the back of the facia board covering the track. Easy, peasy to re-mount a door that's come off or re-adujst it if need be. What would that have cost KZ to do? $10?
Lyle
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Post by johnr on Aug 19, 2020 6:58:30 GMT -5
Took the FW back to my shop to store it and ran into my cousin's family, the ones that are building the bus (www.beginningfromthismorning.com). They have the same type of sliding doors, but =fancy= ones, with soft open/close tracks. Juan, cousin's husband, is so f'n brilliant that he put a metal strip on the side of the roller track and added several counter-sunk =magnets= to the back of the facia board covering the track. Easy, peasy to re-mount a door that's come off or re-adujst it if need be. What would that have cost KZ to do? $10? Lyle If you built a trailer that was meticulously crafted using only the best materials, who do you think would be able to afford it? Do you think you'd be competitive in the market? |
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Post by laknox on Aug 19, 2020 10:36:35 GMT -5
Took the FW back to my shop to store it and ran into my cousin's family, the ones that are building the bus (www.beginningfromthismorning.com). They have the same type of sliding doors, but =fancy= ones, with soft open/close tracks. Juan, cousin's husband, is so f'n brilliant that he put a metal strip on the side of the roller track and added several counter-sunk =magnets= to the back of the facia board covering the track. Easy, peasy to re-mount a door that's come off or re-adujst it if need be. What would that have cost KZ to do? $10? Lyle If you built a trailer that was meticulously crafted using only the best materials, who do you think would be able to afford it? Do you think you'd be competitive in the market? John, I've said for a long time that, for an extra $500-1000 in cost on these units, they'd have far fewer, and less expensive, warranty claims that would more than offset that extra cost. You can't tell me that warranty numbers, both quantity and dollars, are some of the most closely guarded secrets in the entire industry. How many warranty claims would be covered by one bad rig that the mfr had to buy back because it was so poorly built? How much did the mfr spend on fixing warranty issues =before= a buy-back? Even if they bring it back and rebuild it, it's still probably going to auction for pennies of their cost. Hell, paying the workers a decent wage =without= quota bonuses, and just saying, "we'll build 20 units in 8 hours today, instead of 25 in 6 hours so you can get a bonus" would greatly reduce the warranty issues across the board. OK, enough... Lyle |
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Post by johnr on Aug 20, 2020 6:57:55 GMT -5
If you built a trailer that was meticulously crafted using only the best materials, who do you think would be able to afford it? Do you think you'd be competitive in the market? John, I've said for a long time that, for an extra $500-1000 in cost on these units, they'd have far fewer, and less expensive, warranty claims that would more than offset that extra cost. You can't tell me that warranty numbers, both quantity and dollars, are some of the most closely guarded secrets in the entire industry. How many warranty claims would be covered by one bad rig that the mfr had to buy back because it was so poorly built? How much did the mfr spend on fixing warranty issues =before= a buy-back? Even if they bring it back and rebuild it, it's still probably going to auction for pennies of their cost. Hell, paying the workers a decent wage =without= quota bonuses, and just saying, "we'll build 20 units in 8 hours today, instead of 25 in 6 hours so you can get a bonus" would greatly reduce the warranty issues across the board. OK, enough... Lyle You have a point about extra care would save warranty dollars. In the software industry it costs us less overall to have a Quality Assurance team in place to make sure our product goes out clean than it does to have unhappy customers and be constantly re-working buggy software. The lower the cost of the product, the easier it is for a customer to just get angry and find another product. As the cost of the product goes up, the more stickiness you generate with your customer. With that said, you're not taking into account that your $10 change isn't just a $10 investment. You have to re-work your supply chain. You have to obtain enough inventory to feel comfortable to start using said product. Then you have to have agreements in place with the manufacturer that you'll be able to get said product in the quantities and timelines necessary to continue to operate your business. After all that, you have to train your people on how to install this product. So one $10 product could have an investment of hundreds or thousands of man-hours before the first one even goes out the door. Multiply that by how many little changes you think it would take to make a better rig. It's not as simple as buy a part and stick it on. |
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Post by laknox on Aug 20, 2020 12:42:18 GMT -5
John, I've said for a long time that, for an extra $500-1000 in cost on these units, they'd have far fewer, and less expensive, warranty claims that would more than offset that extra cost. You can't tell me that warranty numbers, both quantity and dollars, are some of the most closely guarded secrets in the entire industry. How many warranty claims would be covered by one bad rig that the mfr had to buy back because it was so poorly built? How much did the mfr spend on fixing warranty issues =before= a buy-back? Even if they bring it back and rebuild it, it's still probably going to auction for pennies of their cost. Hell, paying the workers a decent wage =without= quota bonuses, and just saying, "we'll build 20 units in 8 hours today, instead of 25 in 6 hours so you can get a bonus" would greatly reduce the warranty issues across the board. OK, enough... Lyle You have a point about extra care would save warranty dollars. In the software industry it costs us less overall to have a Quality Assurance team in place to make sure our product goes out clean than it does to have unhappy customers and be constantly re-working buggy software. The lower the cost of the product, the easier it is for a customer to just get angry and find another product. As the cost of the product goes up, the more stickiness you generate with your customer. With that said, you're not taking into account that your $10 change isn't just a $10 investment. You have to re-work your supply chain. You have to obtain enough inventory to feel comfortable to start using said product. Then you have to have agreements in place with the manufacturer that you'll be able to get said product in the quantities and timelines necessary to continue to operate your business. After all that, you have to train your people on how to install this product. So one $10 product could have an investment of hundreds or thousands of man-hours before the first one even goes out the door. Multiply that by how many little changes you think it would take to make a better rig. It's not as simple as buy a part and stick it on. Case in point is my KZ. The vent coves are POS. The screens are, barely, held in by these little tabs that sun rot in a year or two. My old Komfort had zero issues in the 13 years I owned it and it was stored outside the entire time; my KZ was stored on the dealer lot for a year and has been under cover since I owned it. I had all mine replaced under warranty after all 3 screens fell out. KZ could have specified better product at any point in time because, guess what?, vent coves are pretty much universal. A mfr can specify a frame build by LCI and, for a few extra bucks, make sure there's decent gusseting around the pin box to be =sure= that the frame won't brake. They could also do some random inspection/testing of frames they get in to be sure that they were actually built properly. I've seen too damn many pics of LCI frames with beautiful welds that had zero penetration on one side, so broke loose. Admittedly, it seems that LCI has addressed this more recently, but there are still occasional frame problems. It's simply the little stuff that's the most frustrating to the end-user and likely is the one that causes the highest number and cost to the mfr for warranty issues. Ducts that aren't secured; wiring that's not secured and frays; same with plumbing; the list goes on. Like I said, IMO for < $1,000 more in cost most mfrs would gain much more in customer satisfaction and repeat business, as well as less expenses for warranty, in the long run. Lyle |
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Post by Chuck on Aug 21, 2020 16:09:00 GMT -5
Lyle So think of it this way, you add $10 part to the trailer, then you add another $20 part as well, so times that $30 buy say 200 trailers of that same make of trailer now you have a few thousand dollars invested on that one line of trailers ... Increase those parts on other lines as well an now you have again many thousands of dollars in just a few parts ... As you know you bought your trailer at a dicount because it sat for a few years at the back of the dealer lot an got rummaged over as well so you got a great discount ... Would you bought that same trailer at full price if it was brand new ... This is my point not to pick on you, well a little LOL, but most seasoned RV buyers are looking for a deal an even some preservative buyer who have never owned a trailer are looking for a deal ... So if the MFG add say $1000 to the price of a trailer because they have up graded some of the things
in the trailer as you well know this may be a deal breaker ... Potential buys may walk away from a
deal over a few $100 dollarsin some case's, they don't care that instead of staples the MFG used
screws or dove taled the draws, all they care about is that few hundred dollar more that they think the salesmen or women is trying to screw them out of ...
Now saying the above if the Salesman or women would have offered different up-grades such as wet bolts, different suspension an presented correctly in a good manor an explained why it was a valuable upgrade I believe most new owners may bit ... I would have done such to save
Chuck
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Post by lynnmor on Aug 21, 2020 16:54:58 GMT -5
I agree that way too many folks only look at the bottom line, and maybe worse, only look at the monthly payments. Of course adding things or upgrading parts will increase the price, but I do think that we have a right to expect even the cheapest things to be installed correctly. In your example, if they resorted to using cheap and quick stapling, at least do it right. I have seen sloppy work that could have been much better and faster if the builders would only think a bit. For example, make a template for the screw holes that hold the rear of the drawers instead of installing helter-skelter.
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Post by laknox on Aug 23, 2020 21:13:25 GMT -5
My point is that, if mfrs would spend a bit more on the build, they'd more than save enough to still be competitive price-wise, since the warranty costs would be significantly lower. Without those actual warranty numbers, though, you really can't say.
Lyle
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Post by Chuck on Aug 30, 2020 15:13:33 GMT -5
Well I do not know about the TT line's at Kz maybe someone who as went though that plant can tell you what they saw, I do know about the 5th wheel line  What I saw was a clean plant an markings on trailers inside an out that needed attention to be fixed made by inspectors ... Now it might have been because they had people/owners going thought the plant the day we were there but going back a few days later an looking into the same plant I still saw it pretty darn clean...
Of course the second day I could not look into trailers as what we did the rally day we went though
the 5th wheel plant, but I didn't see much saw dust laying around once they had put on the sides an
started installing cabinets, wiring in some case's was not what I call top of the line an ask a question
about such... I was told it was for testing purposes an would be changed or cleaned up after the testing
was completed ... I also saw a large chart on the wall regarding testing of wiring, water pressure etc an
thought to myself that was great to see an ask if they followed it pretty much, answer was of course
"yes" as I would expect it to be said In the last few weeks I have been taking apart our old TT from years ago, I was surprised at the amount of screws in that old trailer on not only the outside but the inside, as well as staples, dozen's of each ... Of course the frame was made out of 2x2's an the ceiling has 1/2 inch plywood an the floor wasn't much better, side wall also had 1/4 inch or less plywood with veneer ... The Water heater was made by the same MFG as with our Kz 5th wheel but much smaller an the fresh water tank had the same problem lots of people complain about with outlets being not at the bottom but up a few inches above the bottom of the tank ... Black water tank wasn't that bad, I cut it open to see an even thought we had not used such for years was pretty clean to my surprise ... So I believe from the 60'es to today I can say I didn't see much of a difference per some of the comments I read on the way trailers are made ... Next on the list it to take apart our old side in camper which has fallen into disrepair, be interesting to see how it was built ... Safe Travels Chuck |
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Post by mam 18 281 RLT...17 Titan XD on Dec 19, 2020 12:14:23 GMT -5
Purchasing this 281 RLT and looking at construction issues I have noticed alot of differences..Our old 12 KZ was better built...Our 88 Damond was the best built TT next to our Jayco..So we have owned a Palimno pop up 82. .84 Jayco Jaywobbler..88 Damond 28 BH..06 Puma Dsdb..2012 KZ TT. Dont remember model. BH series .And now 281 RLT that with a few more mods and tweaks it will be OK..
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