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Post by laknox on Mar 31, 2020 10:37:21 GMT -5
...and lots more quality.
Lyle
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Post by Edd505 on Mar 31, 2020 18:30:36 GMT -5
...and lots more quality. Lyle Spacecraft?? Mobile Suites?
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Post by laknox on Apr 1, 2020 10:22:59 GMT -5
...and lots more quality. Lyle Spacecraft?? Mobile Suites? Those are Rolls Royce models; I'm thinking the average rig being built. Since the vast majority of owners are more-or-less "< 1 month warriors", they don't need a "home", just a comfortable place to be for a shorter time. Who really needs crown molding? Who really needs solid counters? Who really needs a cedar lined closet? Who really needs fancy light sconces? Etc. Give us a decently built undercarriage and frame, neat wiring and plumbing, solidly built cabinets and drawers. Hell, look at the rigs built in Australia. Very utilitarian, given that their camping is very likely to be in some rough country, or travel through rough country to get there, so they build to reflect that. While I'm not a fan of that look (I still like darker woods), I understand their mentality. I'm of the opinion that mfrs could offer a well-built, rig, sans the glitz, for less than a shoddily built "gilded palace". Lyle
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Post by Edd505 on Apr 1, 2020 19:16:08 GMT -5
I have no complaints with over 25K on my 2017 KZ. Have there been issues? Yes all pretty small considering but the over all has been excellent, no leaks, no broken suspension (did wet bolt upgrade)no broken doors, drawers etc.
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Post by laknox on Apr 1, 2020 21:53:14 GMT -5
I have no complaints with over 25K on my 2017 KZ. Have there been issues? Yes all pretty small considering but the over all has been excellent, no leaks, no broken suspension (did wet bolt upgrade)no broken doors, drawers etc. So, why can't you get wet bolts from the factory in lieu of the solid counter tops, AND gain 50-60 lbs of CCC? Lyle
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Post by nvguy on Apr 1, 2020 23:27:59 GMT -5
This is an endless battle. Shiny things impress people. To the average buyer blue lights under the counter tops is more impressive than wet bolts.
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Post by johnr on Apr 2, 2020 7:59:13 GMT -5
It's a numbers game. What sells? Would they rather build 10 gilded units and sell 9 of them or build 10 utility units and sell 2? People want pretty, they want it to feel like a second home. The vast majority of people don't care what the wiring or plumbing look like as long as it works. If it doesn't work, they just take it back to the dealer.
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Post by laknox on Apr 2, 2020 10:42:38 GMT -5
It's a numbers game. What sells? Would they rather build 10 gilded units and sell 9 of them or build 10 utility units and sell 2? People want pretty, they want it to feel like a second home. The vast majority of people don't care what the wiring or plumbing look like as long as it works. If it doesn't work, they just take it back to the dealer. Until they can't take it back because it's out of warranty and have to DIY repairs. Spend 2/3 of their time untangling the spaghetti mess. You'd =think= that the mfrs would try and build stuff for those of us who are going into their 2nd, 3rd, 4th unit and KNOW WTF they want and don't want and know what's good and what's not. Lyle
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Post by rvdude on Apr 3, 2020 0:11:13 GMT -5
It will never get better as long as they continue to pay the workers by the piece. Hurry up and get them out the door equals more money in their pockets. I used to work in the appliance parts business and they paid our service techs a small base salary plus commission on the calls, but when there was a call back on a repair, it was subtracted out of their pay. If the rv industry had a way to do something like that I bet you would have better quality built trailers.
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Post by johnr on Apr 3, 2020 7:00:14 GMT -5
I don't think that the majority of RV owners are DIYers. Try to get your RV into the shop in October or November and you can't because people don't even winterize themselves. If they won't flip a few knobs and run antifreeze, I guarantee they won't take apart a cabinet to look for a water leak or trace wiring to find out why a light won't work.
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Post by laknox on Apr 3, 2020 10:41:20 GMT -5
I don't think that the majority of RV owners are DIYers. Try to get your RV into the shop in October or November and you can't because people don't even winterize themselves. If they won't flip a few knobs and run antifreeze, I guarantee they won't take apart a cabinet to look for a water leak or trace wiring to find out why a light won't work. I think that most will at least =try=, but it's during the warranty period that's the most frustrating. How many times do you read about people who simply give up on dealers because they can't get a repair done in a timely manner or in a timely manner at a non-selling dealer. I've been saying this for nearly my entire time on the on-line fora, that if the RV industry would work more like the automotive model, they'd have a lot more happy customers and would make even =more= money. This would mean that 1) dealers would have to have a nationwide network to share inventory (yes, I realize that there are vastly more brands than in the car industry, and it would take some compromise), 2) dealers of a given brand =have= to work on any rig of that brand that comes in on a first come basis...period, 3) most importantly, pay the builders a real wage and get off the pay per unit to raise quality. I've said for a long time that, if daily production were cut, say 5%, and use that time to build the other 95% =better=, there'd be a =lot= less warranty repair work and a lot less repair work, overall. What is the cost of a return-to-factory repair? If that rig had been built better, and the time to =fix= it spread out over other rigs built at the same time, how much better would they =all= be? Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together should know that one of the most closely guarded secrets in the RV industry are the =real= warranty numbers, both in total # of repairs and $$ spent. Lyle
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Post by Edd505 on Apr 4, 2020 15:44:26 GMT -5
This is an endless battle. Shiny things impress people. To the average buyer blue lights under the counter tops is more impressive than wet bolts. Exactly, that's impressive to the new guy. Having started in a popup, truck camper, bumper pull & the 3rd 5W I knew what I wanted. I suspect if I factory order I could get wet bolts. How many order from the factory vs buying whats on the lot they looked at? I know dealers will do what ever they need to sell a unit. If I looked at one I liked and saw no wet bolts, it's pretty easy to say you install before I buy, bet they scramble to get it done. Recall all the tire issue in all the RV forums? That's why mine had LT tires before I took possession, I knew what I didn't want.
I don't expect entry level to be as good as mid level and the mid level to be upper end quality or the upper end to be of custom quality. Ever hear the old adage you get what you pay for?? I worked for Ford, Lincoln, Mercury years ago and did repairs on brand new Ford Falcon's and Lincoln Mark III's, man makes it it won't ever be perfect there will be problems.
I strongly suspect you buy a Space Craft it will have problems when put to use. Remember the space shuttle, simple O-ring.
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Post by nvguy on Apr 4, 2020 23:14:42 GMT -5
This is an endless battle. Shiny things impress people. To the average buyer blue lights under the counter tops is more impressive than wet bolts. Exactly, that's impressive to the new guy. Having started in a popup, truck camper, bumper pull & the 3rd 5W I knew what I wanted. I suspect if I factory order I could get wet bolts. How many order from the factory vs buying whats on the lot they looked at? I know dealers will do what ever they need to sell a unit. If I looked at one I liked and saw no wet bolts, it's pretty easy to say you install before I buy, bet they scramble to get it done. Recall all the tire issue in all the RV forums? That's why mine had LT tires before I took possession, I knew what I didn't want.
I don't expect entry level to be as good as mid level and the mid level to be upper end quality or the upper end to be of custom quality. Ever hear the old adage you get what you pay for?? I worked for Ford, Lincoln, Mercury years ago and did repairs on brand new Ford Falcon's and Lincoln Mark III's, man makes it it won't ever be perfect there will be problems.
I strongly suspect you buy a Space Craft it will have problems when put to use. Remember the space shuttle, simple O-ring.
You are exactly right. For the right price we did whatever the customer wanted. In one case we built a whole subframe to lift a small 5th wheel 8". I sold 98% of our bearing pack customers wet bolt kits because 98% of them had worn out suspensions. The dealer i worked for sold Weekend Warrior toy haulers (before they went to he** in a hand basket), well they were pretty well built- heavier floor coverings and such. Noticeably quieter than the others we sold. Typically customers rolled their eyes, and weren't interested- as the Warriors cost more. Our lot backed up to the freeway, so we had a ready source of noise. Once they stood in a Warrior VS the other they understood, and most went for the Warrior. Point of all this is people don't do well with things you can't show them, most have no idea why wet bolts or LT tires are better, so manufacturers have to resort to flash and glitz. As far as quality, yeah, the RV industry needs to sharpen up. A lot. For me, root cause is the manufacturers need to not send poorly constructed & inspected products to the dealers, simply because most dealers do not have the desire or ability to do a proper PDI. But until that changes it's up to the dealers. I was lucky, the owner of the dealership I worked for was a former technician, so he understood tech items and he was customer satisfaction oriented- "just fix it- make the customer happy". It starts when the unit is delivered to the dealer. There was more than one instance I went to the GM and we refused a unit due to all the issues I found. That resulted in a phone call or two, and we got a blank check from the manufacturer for warranty items. They do not want to pay for return shipping. Next is the PDI- again, we did a very detailed PDI because I did a lot of the walk thru's and nothing is more embarrassing than to open a kitchen drawer and find it half full of water from a leaking P-Trap (true story). The wife and I have looked at the "higher end" coaches and I can't say their additional cost is offset by additional quality. Yeah, the cabinetry is a bit better & they install some shelves in places I had to, other than that, I don't see it- but there sure is no shortage of goofy trim. We have some friends that had a $350K DP that was plagued with issues, they got lucky and were able to sell it without losing much.
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Post by Chuck on Apr 18, 2020 18:24:26 GMT -5
Adding to the comments here from Edd505, nvguy, laknox, johnr I have to agree with all As I have posted in other treads we bought our 384 because I liked what I saw in the workmanship of the trailer after looking at other brands of the same price point ... Did I expect Cherry wood or Maple cabinets, no, did I expect dovetail drawers, not really, I did like that the drawers were on metal slides an the shelves were a bit heavier that what he had in our Coachmen Chappy, I also liked that the floors were solid an didn't give ... As with Edd505 our trailer has now made three trips across the United States, once on I-90, once on I-80, once on I-70 an north on I-84 an I-15 an a number of trips around Washington, Oregon, Montana an held up pretty darn
well overall ... Have I had to fix or replace some things, yes, toilet comes to mind for one (NOT a KZ Product) but I didn't expect it to be a high end toilet to begin with ...
What I didn't expect was the spring hanger bushings to ware so fast an I believe if I would have ask for such the
dealer would have put the MorRyde or LCI wet bolt kit an or the MorRyde the SRE-4000 suspension on the trailer at
extra cost to me as well before I took the trailer off the lot ... Even now i look back at our old Coachmen Cappy an wonder even thought I was pretty anal about upkeep did the bushings after being replaced 3 or 4 years before we traded it in also need replaced Ugh !!! More than like even thought they were top of the line bushings at the time along with Timkin wheel bearings which our 384 now has as of last year ....
What I will say that Kz has at least for us bent over backwards to repair anything we ask to be repaired an some small things that they saw that needed to be fixing to make the trailer even better along with a few things I broke Ugh !!!
Safe Travels an Stay Safe
Chuck
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